Looks like the smart ED will outdistance the Chevy Volt - maybe at half the price? Chevy is claiming only 25 to 50 miles per charge for the Volt.
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2010/09/24/chevy-clarifies-volt-elec...

Including link provided by member Dariusz to report on US power generation capacity:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat1p2.html

Including link to article describing installation of public charging outlets by the Dept of Energy:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/10/18/ev.charging.stations/index.html?er...

Thanks for your time.


Let's be careful out there,
Pops and Carlito

Tags: battery, ed, electric

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But the smart will have to stop for up to 8 hours to recharge while the Volt has an onboard generator and can keep going as long as you Gas the Generator.
I guess it isn't the best comparison. Just seems like with all their blather about the volt, it would be a bit more efficient than that. At that distance it is no better than the Prius and runs ~ $10K more.
If I used the distance I drive to work (when I am in the office) I would get 5 days in with the ED before charging verses 2 or 3 with the volt before needing engine assist.
Without doing all the math on price per kwh verses a gallon of gas, it seems more efficient with the ED.
With the ED air conditioning on in Phoenix, the range is unlikely to be as advertised... It will be interesting to see what happens with test vehicles in hot and muggy Austin...
Hopefully future ones will replace the roof with Solar Panels for keeping the Ventilation going in the hot sun



Robert Stout said:
With the ED air conditioning on in Phoenix, the range is unlikely to be as advertised... It will be interesting to see what happens with test vehicles in hot and muggy Austin...
This is an interesting discussion. I have a Prius and it gets truly awesome gas mileage, but if you compare the Prius' 50-55 mpg with the Volt's 200-300 mpg (adjusted for the cost of charging and only driving the same distance [15 miles each way] I currently drive to work with my Prius) the Prius comes far short. :-(

But I would like to bring up something else I find interesting. The smart ED have very few moving parts compared to nearly any vehicle. The transmission has 1 speed and the motor is brushless. Other than the battery and the obvious fact that the smart is foreign (more expensive parts), the cost of ownership of the smart must be far lower than the Volt that has a similar drivetrain and an engine.
Thats right Larry, It's a Giant Conspiracy to keep the good stuff out of The US.

Europe gets the ED, Diesel and Gas smarts, We just get the Gas and ED

It has noting to do with the fact that the smart is smaller than your other Mercedes and the extras they added onto those vehicles don't fit the the engine compartment of the smart. It has nothing to do with the fact that making the changes between the EU spec ED and the US is almost nil while the difference between a EU spec Diesel and US spec diesel adds a great deal of cost and would greatly cut those magical MPG's by a third.

It has noting to do with the fact that the US market for smarts is so small that it is just not worth the R&D to over come all those issues for a model that will be completely redesigned in 2 years.

Your Right and everyone else is wrong Larry, Its Penske Conspiring with his Big Oil sponsors to keep the Diesel smart out of the US market, And they say I Drank the coolaid


Larry Butler said:
It will be an economic disaster, just like all the other battery-powered cars. It will take hours to recharge every 50-100 miles. The battery pack will cost as much as a new one, as a Prius owner I'm sure you already know. Some corporations may buy or lease as a tax deduction, but the public isn't going to buy it.

Actually Larry you are quoting myths that have been circulating for a long time concerning electric vehicles. It is true that batteries are expensive, but the replacement cost is not as high as the vehicle's purchase price. Batteries in a Prius have a life-span of 7-8 years which is the life-span of you average car. Now from what I've seen is there is a number of ways to handle replacing batteries; 1 let the dealer do it, 2 find a local shop, 3 do it yourself. The price tag for these are approximately as follows: $4000, $100, $500. By far the most expensive is to let the dealer do it. Check this out Toyota Prius Battery Replacement.

No car is perfect.

Gasoline cars are grossly inefficient

Diesel cars smell bad (although they are getting better), have far more difficulty meeting EPA standards in fact they require a urea tank for one of the catalytic converters, they are the prime reason the beautiful architecture of Europe being eroded away because of the acidic exhaust, they run roughly (although they are getting better), are far more noisy (only slightly better lately). One thing about Diesels I like is that we can make our own fuel for them and they run just fine.

Electric cars have a high battery replacement cost, battery recycling difficulties, battery disposal problems.

We work with what we have.


Larry Butler said:
... So, for $50, you get a book to tell you the secret, right? Wonderful!
...
Rebuilding a high voltage battery pack is dangerous. The firemen arrive at a Prius fire and watch it burn, here. They won't try to put the fire out for fear of being electrocuted.

More myths and legends. Just so we are on the same page I am an Electrical Engineer and prior to that and Electrician; I CAN rebuild a Prius battery if I so choose. I will agree that it is not the correct answer for everyone, but as you seemed to overlook in my post there are aftermarket companies that do this for a thousands less than the dealer. Besides, who brings their car to a dealership after warrantee anyway.

Now that aside, it is another myth that firefighters will not approach a wrecked Prius for fear of electrocution. How do I know this you ask? I talked to them myself instead of propagating rumor. I told the firemen, at their firehouse, the rumor that firemen would not approach a wrecked Prius for fear of electrocution. (Note that the word firemen IS plural, there were four of them.) They all looked at each other and then LITERALLY LAUGHED! They had never heard such an absurd comment. One said he had heard the myth and laughed then also. They told me they simply use their LINEMAN'S SHEARS (a special type of wire cutter used for high voltage lines) and cut the main cable under the car. These are their words not mine. They WILL NOT leave people in danger if at all possible just for fear of electrocution. Get on YouTube and watch firemen save people on high tension lines or factories or even a house. Yes houses have 110 and 220 VAC as opposed to the Prius 210VDC. These have far more power than a hybrid car.

One more thing on the "burning Prius", if no one is in the car and it is fully engulfed in flame firemen will hold back for fear of EXPLOSION! Pure electrics vehicles can "pop" the seals of their batteries and burn interesting colors, but that is a far cry from a gas tank explosion. Hybrids, gasoline, and diesels all have gas tasks you know. They can all explode if on fire which is far more likely the reason the firemen will hold back: not simply electrocution.

Now for the myth that it doesn't pay for itself. Do the math. Let's figure very conservatively and say the Prius will run 150,000 miles before needing batteries (the batteries are fully warranted to this point anyway in California). The average life span is greater than this. Let's also say for argument the Prius gets 50mpg and use a the national average of automobiles; 25mpg. Over 150,000 miles the Prius will use 3,000 gallons less fuel (6,000 for regular cars and 3,000 for the Prius). When multiplied by $1.50 per gallon, the savings are $4,500 which is less than even the dealer's price. So if you take a Prius and get the batteries replaced for $1000 you made $3500. If you compare a smaller car that gets 30mpg the savings would be only $3000 and you could still save $2,000 at the aftermarket shop and loose about a $1000 at the dealer.

If the danger to owners and firemen are substantially more in a Prius, insurance companies would charge far more to insure them. The fact is that it cost me less than my Ford Focus.
So is there a way to factor in the price of electricity for Prius charge? Or does it not plug in and rely solely on the IC engine for charging?

Rob said:


Do the math. Let's figure very conservatively and say the Prius will run 150,000 miles before needing batteries (the batteries are fully warranted to this point anyway in California). The average life span is greater than this. Let's also say for argument the Prius gets 50mpg and use a the national average of automobiles; 25mpg. Over 150,000 miles the Prius will use 3,000 gallons less fuel (6,000 for regular cars and 3,000 for the Prius). When multiplied by $1.50 per gallon, the savings are $4,500 which is less than even the dealer's price. So if you take a Prius and get the batteries replaced for $1000 you made $3500. If you compare a smaller car that gets 30mpg the savings would be only $3000 and you could still save $2,000 at the aftermarket shop and loose about a $1000 at the dealer.
Hi Larry,
While I do not dispute your claim that most Smarties want diesel, you may want to consider that some of the rest of us simply can't have them even next to us for longer than we can hold our breath.

I would love the mpgs and all but coming from a place with lots of diesel trucks leaving thick, suffocating black clouds behind kind of gets in a way of appreciating that.

But of course, when you are inside a diesel car, you don't breathe your own pipe's exhaust. It is left behind.

I would take electric over diesel anytime for that single reason.


Larry Butler said:
Rob said:
"The smart ED have very few moving parts compared to nearly any vehicle. The transmission has 1 speed and the motor is brushless. Other than the battery and the obvious fact that the smart is foreign (more expensive parts), the cost of ownership of the smart must be far lower than the Volt that has a similar drivetrain and an engine."

It will be an economic disaster, just like all the other battery-powered cars. It will take hours to recharge every 50-100 miles. The battery pack will cost as much as a new one, as a Prius owner I'm sure you already know. Some corporations may buy or lease as a tax deduction, but the public isn't going to buy it.

Like myself, most American Smarties wanted the DIESEL that gets 85mpg. Penske says it's too much to "re-engineer" the Eurodiesel to make it approved by EPA for the USA. I think that's nonsense. I have two Mercedes diesel cars and a diesel V-8 stepvan. The dealers don't want the low maintenance diesel in the country. It just lasts too long and doesn't require constant "tuneups" and other gas engine nonsense like expensive plugs. Oil companies don't want it in the country, either, for obvious reasons.

Smart has wasted valuable resources that COULD have sold a lot of us amazing diesel CDi on this electric folly and electric moped, instead of giving the buyers what we wanted in the first place.....DIESEL SMART CARS!

http://uk.smart.com/smart-fortwo-diesel/bd79dc5c-d9de-5c62-ad43-1ae...
Hi Rob,
When doing a math on primarily electric car like Volt, It is not reasonable to apply the same rules as for Prius.

Allow me to offer an alternative computation.
With the assumption that most people who get Volt have already figured out that their distance to work plus weekend shopping is going to be completely electric drive (gas drive for extraordinary routes only).

Based on weekly maximum need for about 140 kWh draw from the grid at (depending on your location - in a Bay Area it would be about $0.42/kWh amounting to about $60 dollars a week to drive about 280 miles. Thus if prices of electricity were to be constant for about 10 years, the cost of electricity to push that car would be about $32k to reach that 150000 miles number you talked about and then you have to replace $30000 battery.

It would cost only $10k to propel Prius the same distance at current gas prices here ($3.2 per gallon) and then you need to replace $4000 battery.

It would cost $12k to propel Smart ForTwo for the same distance at gas price $3.4 and no battery cost.

So by this calculation Smart is the most cost efficient vehicle to drive for 150k miles.

Smart ForTwo gas-> $12k per 150k miles
Prius -> $14k per 150k miles
Volt -> $62k per 150k miles (unless your electricity is cheaper than here) if fully electric.
Smart ED -> $45k per 150k miles (qualifiers as above).

Looks horrible for Electrics? Not necesserily when you factor in that once you have Volt or Smart ED all you need (in windy places) is a $2k wind generator (or a solar alternative) to charge your car and pay for the battery replacement and itself and your $150k miles become (read below)

150k miles -> $0 dollars riding Volt or Smart ED.

That is why it is worth it for each one of us or the nation - free miles and a potential complete independence from oil or energy prices.










Rob said:




Now for the myth that it doesn't pay for itself. Do the math. Let's figure very conservatively and say the Prius will run 150,000 miles before needing batteries (the batteries are fully warranted to this point anyway in California). The average life span is greater than this. Let's also say for argument the Prius gets 50mpg and use a the national average of automobiles; 25mpg. Over 150,000 miles the Prius will use 3,000 gallons less fuel (6,000 for regular cars and 3,000 for the Prius). When multiplied by $1.50 per gallon, the savings are $4,500 which is less than even the dealer's price. So if you take a Prius and get the batteries replaced for $1000 you made $3500. If you compare a smaller car that gets 30mpg the savings would be only $3000 and you could still save $2,000 at the aftermarket shop and loose about a $1000 at the dealer.

The fact is that it cost me less than my Ford Focus.
The Brazilians have the best idea with their pure ethanol cars... If it breaks down, you just take out a long straw and suck the tank...

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